"They're not bad guys"

MSNBC.com
'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Nov. 13

Read the transcript to the 7 p.m. ET show
Updated: 10:19 a.m. ET Nov. 16, 2004
Guest: Michael Ware, Richard Perle

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. We‘re talking about the U.S. Marines‘ investigation today into what may be the illegal killing of a wounded, unarmed insurgent during combat operations in Fallujah. Joining me right now is MSNBC‘s military analyst and retired U.S. Army Colonel Ken Allard.
Colonel, it‘s a tough one. What did you make of the pictures? You‘ve seen the raw footage.
COL. KEN ALLARD (RET)., U.S. ARMY: Yeah. Chris, I‘ve got to tell you, if I were that kid‘s defense counsel, I would realize that I had a very, very tough case in front of me, and I would try—literally try and pull out every possible stop, and every possible advantage that I could. Including self-defense.

MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you about this. If this were the other side, and we were watching an enemy soldier, a rival—I mean, they‘re not bad guys, especially—just people that disagree with it. They‘re in fact the insurgents fighting us in their country.
If we saw one of them do what we saw our guy do to that guy, would we consider that worthy of a war crimes charge?

ALLARD: We probably would. I mean, what you have to remember about all these things is the fact that if what you‘re seeing is enough to inflame the senses, that is precisely the reason why we think of those things in terms of war crimes. And it is also why we tell our soldiers, look, the reason why we have you observe the laws of land warfare is because it makes peace so much easier.

MATTHEWS: The thing is, I guess, I don‘t want to get into the exculpatory mood or the indictive role. That‘s not my role. It is simply to report what we know so far and what its implications are.
Colonel, that fellow was apparently alive, clearly alive at the time the trooper went in there. He wasn‘t some dead guy with—covered up or clouded up with, what do you call it, explosives that were going to blow when the guy was touched. He wasn‘t booby-trapped. Was there any justification for killing him, then?

ALLARD: You would have to say probably not. But I just have to tell you, if you are one of those Marines that we‘ve seen so often going into Fallujah, imagine the incredible tension and imagine the incredible danger. You have got AK-47‘s and RPGs in front of you, and you have got TV cameras right behind you. You cannot imagine a more daunting situation. But all that having been said, that is exactly what these kids are trained for. And you simply have to judge this whole case on the merits.

MATTHEWS: And he knew the cameramen—he knew the cameramen were there. He knew that he was being observed. So whatever he did, he thought he was justified in doing it, it seems to me, that‘s a fair assumption.
Let me ask you about what the rules of engagement are. Watching the battlefield casualties, you don‘t read a lot about wounded Iraqi prisoners. Do we take prisoners? Do we take wounded prisoners? Obviously we‘re sending our troops up to Germany to get fixed up, if we can. They‘re getting the best medical treatment in the world, and they deserve it. What kind of treatment normally goes to the losers? To the other side, the wounded?

ALLARD: One of the things that we do with our kids, is they are trained—yes, indeed, we do take prisoners. Yes, indeed, we are responsible for evacuating them and making sure they receive competent medical care. It is one of the laws of land warfare. It is one of the points of honor of the U.S. force that we take care of the enemy‘s wounded as well as our own, even if that means that you are taking chances you would not otherwise want to take, even if it means you‘re putting yourself in harm‘s way to do that. That‘s what we do.

MATTHEWS: But we don‘t send them up to Germany for the best medical care in the West, do we? Like we do our own guys?

ALLARD: I think we try and treat most of those guys in country. We have a very elaborate military evacuation system, but I think most of those people are probably treated in that theater.

MATTHEWS: So what—it‘s not one of those things when on the offensive, you take no prisoners? It‘s not? There are times when that does occur, though, right?

ALLARD: Well, in the heat of battle, Chris, I‘m not going to say that there are not some very, very tough decisions that those soldiers have to make. I...

MATTHEWS: I mean, you can‘t take prisoners when you‘re fighting in a mosque and fighting against the enemy that all—potentially all around you. You can‘t very much start putting the stretchers up, can you?

ALLARD: No. In fact, one of the things that we do not do is, we do not demand that those kids put themselves deliberately in danger.
It is a very, very tough line that you have to always be prepared to defend. But I just have to tell you that what we always try and do is to stress the humanitarian values, consonant with the mission they‘re on. The mission that they‘re on is to kill insurgents.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you very much, Colonel Ken Allard.

ALLARD: You bet.